NBCUniversal's Marshall: Universal Ads, BravoCon & the Measurement Mess

Speaker 0 · 0:01

So I'm here with Mark Marshall, who's the chairman of global advertising and partnerships at NBCUniversal. Mark, it's always a pleasure to sit down with you. Good to see you again, Justin. It's great to see you. And look, you've had you've had a great year. Right? You've had, multiple live sporting events, some incredible content. One, how do you how do you plan to maintain that? And if you have a look at the entire, not just TV market, but video market, TVs are competing against unlimited eyeballs. Right? We know where the money's shifting. So one, you had an incredible year. You've gotta maintain that. And then when you look at the landscape of the market, how how do you guys continue to grow? Yeah. I mean, we have we have had an unbelievable year. Started off with legendary

Speaker 1 · 0:46

February, which was, you know, all star NBA all star weekend, Super Bowl Olympics, you know, just a few things that we had Mhmm. Ran through about 285,000,000 people ran through NBC over that period. So that was a great way to start off the year. Now we're in the middle of World Cup. Mhmm. So there's no doubt sports and live events are having a moment. And so when we think about from a content perspective, how do we use those to promote what's upcoming? So we use the Olympics to promote Traders and Love Island and those shows, which actually did great. Use this Super Bowl to promote Sunday night football or Sunday night basketball, which was just starting up as well. Yeah. So I think what we have to be able to do is we have to make it easier for consumers. There is so much content so many places. So part of our strategy with this idea of Sunday night football then we added Sunday night basketball and now Sunday night baseball is you have year round sports on Sunday nights. So it's something we can promote to and promote from because for consumers, my fear is if we continue to make it really hard for them to find live events. Yeah. They'll start just watching clips on social afterwards. Yeah. We have to make that somewhere easy to find and eventize those big events. But at the same time, content is part of it. We also have to build our data assets if we're gonna compete with the platforms. And so this year, we announced our performance insights hub, which is the first time you actually can look at your schedule across linear and digital on the same plan. It's a dashboard that looks like something you'd see from Google, but it's actually linear and digital. You can look at reach frequency. You can look against your own KPIs. You can look against first third party, and no one has ever delivered this for cross platform. So that'll be rolled out in fourth quarter. So it's a balance of content plus the tech to be able to compete with those platforms. So, yeah, we'll we'll come on to that. So you've got basically a login for every single advertiser to come in, see what, see where their ads landed,

Speaker 0 · 2:46

reach, frequency,

Speaker 1 · 2:48

any other sort of KPIs? Any other sort of Yeah. And based on what they wanna do, if they wanna, allow us to pixel Yeah. On other sites, we we did it a couple years ago. Our first test case was with Domino's. Yeah. And we did two schedules that ran a traditional schedule and then our optimized schedule like this. And for the same amount of money, we sold 38%

Speaker 0 · 3:11

more pizzas for them. Yeah. So we can go all the way down to the transaction as well. So it's not just top line. Now is this just NBCU? Because one of the things when you talk to a lot of client maybe this could be outside of The US where you do have to scale, but doesn't it make sense to do that across your all your AV and TV plan rather than just with NBCU? Well, you it's a great question, and that's what we're gonna use our partners at

Speaker 1 · 3:33

FreeWheel are gonna help us as well. Because the ultimate goal is, how do I take this and actually have the whole industry use it? Yeah. And that way, it's not just an NBCU solution. It's a solution for everyone for premium video in general. So are you going around to the other TV providers and saying, hey. Get on board? Yes. We will go to all of them. We're using it for ourselves first, so the first year and subsequent years, it'll be available to us. Okay. What's their response to it? They're very excited we did all the work.

Speaker 0 · 3:58

Hey, well, hey, you've done all that. Because honestly, by market by market, I find clients don't care if it's one TV provider over another. And and it's kinda not really how marketing works. Right? You want everything in there, and and that's how you could ring fence premium. Right? Exactly. And this builds on to the next question is one of the major challenges. I think it's the major challenge that we face in our industry is that of all new spend coming into the market, 90% of that's going to three companies. Yep. What does TV do about that? Well, kind of this Performance Insights Hub is the first step in that because

Speaker 1 · 4:29

if you think about we play in a 72,000,000,000 marketplace. Right. Which is premium video streaming. There's a $102,000,000,000 marketplace that is is social and short form, which we get less than 1% in that. Partly because it was automated, partly because it was data enabled. Now we've actually checked the box for both of those with this new platform.

Speaker 0 · 4:53

So we will be able to compete with the platforms in this, and we'll be able to do it with a 100% premium video that's a 100% brand safe as well. So it's quite interesting because you've got this sort of fandom approach. You've got a a social strategy as well. Like, you mentioned about the clips online. And you do hear that from consumers. I don't need to watch. I can just watch the clips. Right. And then that goes after the short term business, the short the short clips and all the rest of it. So you've got the platforms coming after your TV spend Yeah. And you're going after.

Speaker 1 · 5:24

Their poll's bigger than ours. Yes. There are. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're they're also different types of clients too. A 100%. Because I find that also a lot of the growth is perhaps not coming from the sort of major hold codes and major advertisers spend. 100%. It's the messy middle. Right? Yeah. So what can we do to target them? They're typically digital first businesses. Yeah. They've grown up in digital, if you like. They're used to the metrics, the feedback loops. What can TV do about So I we launched universal ads, and we did that in conjunction with all of our industry partners. But that's that's in that's the SME. Right? That's the right Yep. Exactly. But the hope is what that we're doing with that are taking people who are only running on search and social right now Mhmm. And we're moving them up the ladder. And so we wanna be able to take those. The next goal is how do you start to expand universal ads to get to the messy middle? Because you're right. The the mom and pop shops, you know, the pizza stores locally Yeah. Really hard to scale that. Cool. You gotta be able to get to the middle. So the goal is with universal ads, again, instead of us building our own ads manager, parent, everyone doing their own, coming together as an industry and saying there's one solution that you can access all of the into all of the premium video together in one place. Yeah. We've had great success early on with that, but it's still early stages. Well, it's been in the market in The US probably, what, eighteen months? It was yes. We announced it eighteen months ago. So you're saying you're saying great success. Can you put any numbers to that to

Speaker 0 · 6:45

justify that claim? We are tens of millions of dollars that are happening every quarter that were zero a year ago. Yeah. That's not bad. In eighteen months so you gotta think about it. I I think we can't underestimate the ground game that the the Metas and Google played for twenty years. Yeah. So do you think as other markets launch their own UA solutions as the The UK are doing it, and I'm sure there's other markets that FreeWorld are working on, and there's other iterations as well going after the SMB. Do you do you have any advice for those markets? Is it is it a lot harder than you think? You can't just switch this on and expect them to come. It it it is not. There is a lot more education than, you know, we had. So when we first launched it, we were launching it with how we would talk to advertisers,

Speaker 1 · 7:29

as big brands. That was not the right approach. No. And so now we've almost reformatted how we're marketing completely with much more of a digital social first strategy that we're marketing towards. And that's where we're starting to see some real success with and the team, James Burrow, who, you know, came from Snap, is doing a great job starting to build out that product. And do you think you need boots on the ground as well with with that sort of going out to these smaller businesses? You can't

Speaker 0 · 7:53

you you the platforms are able to switch to AI tools, but their brand is a massive. Everyone knows what they do. Their access points

Speaker 1 · 8:01

are known as one access point. Yep. They've got simplification down. So do you think you need to get people out there as well in the market? We do. I think we are. And I think use that's where we have an advantage, at least in our world, of having you know, you have Comcast local, you have NBC local, you actually have boots on the ground in different ways that we haven't utilized them this way yet. Yeah. Right? We'll start to use that as well locally.

Speaker 0 · 8:23

So another strategy that you guys are are employing is is is not moving beyond spots and dots, but diversification. Do you when you look at the market, and we I mentioned at the beginning, competing against unlimited impressions is the challenge. Right? Right. So do you see if you're a TV company and you rely on a major whole co business Mhmm. A, mostly advertising, do you think you have to diversify and have other streams of income? And and we're talking about BravoCon. You know? You're using your brands. You're you're you're branching out of all sorts of other things, the fandom stuff that you're doing. Is that essential?

Speaker 1 · 8:58

Or do you believe that's essential for all TV companies to to to employ? I think if you have the right brand. I think everyone it is essential for growth. I don't think we're gonna grow in the future if you don't figure out what your alternative streams are. Yeah. I think Bravo is a great example of something that BravoCon, when we first did it at the beginning, it was like a great, you know, stunt marketing stunt. Now it's actually meaningful revenue stream that we use for the company Mhmm. And it sells out in ninety seconds. Is it like 30,000 people? 30,000 people, it sells out in ninety seconds. Yeah. It's funny watching your content. They refer to it on the, actually in the TV show. So don't they? It has become it has become kind of the epicenter of that Intoler bravo

Speaker 0 · 9:41

worst verse Yeah. They're in the center of it. That's crazy. So what else? So you've got events, sort of other branded opportunities. I mean, last time we spoke, you were you were filming, one of your major shows in,

Speaker 1 · 9:54

I think it was in the Ford offices and all that, in Detroit. Yep. What are the things that you guys doing to diversify beyond Well, I think a good example is what we're doing with LA twenty eight. We're partnered with the LA Olympic Committee. Yeah. And that's a partnership where we're selling sponsorships with them. So it's not just we're not just selling the on air media. Mhmm. We're actually partnering with them to go to a Starbucks together. Mhmm. And for a marketer, you used to have to buy the Olympic rings, and then you'd have to go buy the media. We put it all together and partnering with them, and it has been a huge success for us. So that's another area that we see opportunities of. How do we use our on air assets with the

Speaker 0 · 10:33

local and sponsorship to be able to drive those together. So you've got obviously, you've had major sporting events this year. You talk about LA. That leads me on to your other assets that you have. How do how do TV companies deal with when they don't have sporting events, for example? You're obviously leveraging the sporting events into your other stuff, but what do you do if you don't have those major events?

Speaker 1 · 10:55

It's getting harder and harder to stand out. If you are just a, we'll use a old school, general entertainment cable company. You know, you better have something that draws people in Mhmm. Because with fast, there's just so many impressions that are out there. Yeah. And it's it becomes background noise, but I think the what advertisers are starting to see, especially in the digital space, all impressions are not created equal. Yeah. And so that's why it's important that we do have the data to build the proof. There's a difference between a Love Island and a Little House on the Prairie that's running on a fast channel somewhere. The attention that is being delivered, the culture setting, Love Island is a great example of something that people have to watch live, have to be able to watch it, be able to go talk to their friends later in the day. You don't care about Little House on the Prairie that ran it forty five years ago. It doesn't have that same social currency. It doesn't. Do clients realize that though?

Speaker 0 · 11:53

Because there's been a particularly in the CTV world, which we're gonna ask about, there's been a harmonization of rates. Right? The the mid rate in the in The US particularly has plummeted with all this increased supply. So quality in or premium is essential to your cell. Now I'm I'm well aware Super Bowl went up 20%. Yep. So may maybe those major sporting events are even more valuable today. Well, it's and you and I have talked about this in the past. If if a

Speaker 1 · 12:22

client is paying their ad agency on cost mitigation, they're absolutely leaving growth on the team because what they're doing is they're just incenting the lowest common denominator. And so as a result, you've started to see it now in digital where you have we'll call it run of streaming and then you have the Love Islands and Peacock that sit up top. Yeah. And there's been a bifurcation of pricing Yeah. Because you shouldn't price it altogether. Just like broadcast was never priced the same as cable. Mhmm. There's a difference between that. And now we can actually prove the difference with things like the performance insights hub where I can actually show the performance

Speaker 0 · 13:02

of this versus that. Is that is that the only way? Is is my better prove it in that digital context, or can we not showcase the brands, the fact that it's on a big screen, it's seen by humans? Do those things not matter? I think they matter. I think they should matter more than they do, Sam. I I totally agree. US have got some interesting stats. Right? So much money shifted to CTV Yep. As you know. However, today, it's just under 90%. 89% of all available ad impressions is still delivered by linear. Yeah. But you in in The US,

Speaker 1 · 13:34

it's right now, about 40% of budget shifted towards, CTV. It is it is that is the exact reason we've done the Performance Insight Hub to be able to show that. Yeah. I mean, it was interesting because last year, we had a pharmaceutical company who came and said, we're actually going all in on CTV. And I was like, you are missing to your point. You're missing 80% of the impressions that are happening if you're not running in that. Yeah. And this year 89%.

Speaker 0 · 14:02

And this year, they came back. Oh, they did? Yes. But because they probably didn't even hit their reach curves. Did not. So do you believe fundamentally that that the advertisers left linear before the audiences did? 100%. And what do you do about that?

Speaker 1 · 14:17

Well, some of them have come back. Others, it's interesting. The ones that are coming back are coming back into sports. Right. You can see some of the people that had left broadcast, left, went into CTV, and have come back in. It's, you know, when we picked up the NBA, the thesis with that was it's a way to bring advertisers back to the broadcast area. And so we had, you know, 30 plus advertisers that came back to NBC that had left. Mhmm. So you're gonna have to find the impetus to drive someone back. But I would say their advertisers have absolutely, gone

Speaker 0 · 14:54

too quickly to see TV from where it is. Kind of happened with the platforms, you know, and you YouTube as well where, you know, major brands went really heavy and then came back to television because they weren't getting the reach that they thought they were gonna get over there. Yeah. And do you do you feel as though that when you look at it, you're talking about major brands and we're talking about the growth. When you look at, like, the whole co businesses, they look after, like, roughly about 20% of the spend globally. Right? And it's probably gonna sit there, may maybe decline a touch. Do you think TV companies can rely on the whole coast to to grow their business in the future? Well, I think it it's it's hard to ignore 20% of it, but you can't have a solution only for 20%. And so that's what we're we have to build out. Well, a lot of TV companies sometimes look at them and go, you know, up to or close to 90% of your income is based on just the major hold cost. That's the top major advertisers. Do you think that is you know, if that's the case, that's a problem. That's a problem. Okay. So one of the fights you've had, and, you appeared in the Feet on this, and and other titles, we're talking about the measurement crisis that's going on in, in The US. I call it a crisis because there's no there's still no consistent methodology of counting. Right? I think I think we all know that however you count, all the numbers are wrong. We gotta agree on a methodology. Right? In other markets, you have jigs Yeah. If you know. Yep. And it's just a a consortium of buyers and sellers. They agree. We'll count like that. Great. And that's our currency. US, it's a shit show. And you've got advertisers picking the, the measurement narrative that supports them, and then you've got the publishers doing the same thing. What what's gonna happen there? What's the fallout? What's the what's the how do we get out of this in a positive light? Well, I think someone has probably had the same conversation you and I have had since 1975

Speaker 1 · 16:43

on this that, you know, we've had an estimate of audiences. I think it's also part of the reason people have gone to CTV because they feel like it's better counting as opposed to that, which we know is not necessarily We've had thirty years of the digital ad industry, and people think that they can just rely on ad servers. Yep. That's crazy. Yep. And those are some of the conversations that we have. But we we're not gonna sit back and just let our future dictated for us. That's why we created Performance Insights Hub. We have to have a solution that gets to real first party data as opposed to a third party proxy because it really came to light when Nielsen came out with their gauge report. Yeah. Which the gauge report is a great marketing tool. It looks pretty. It's easy to understand. That was a great job by Nielsen. The problem is the numbers aren't right. Mhmm. It doesn't include it doesn't include their dash numbers. It doesn't include BDN. Their ad their ad numbers include ad free for YouTube. So it is a mess. It's confused the marketplace even more so. Yeah. So something that was supposed to simplify actually confused it more so. So if we don't get to first party data,

Speaker 0 · 17:54

we'll be in trouble long term. But with your ads hub Mhmm.

Speaker 1 · 17:58

Are you saying you you're self reporting your numbers within that? We will we actually will allow them to see the numbers in their on their own Yeah. Where every spot runs against whatever they wanna measure against. If they wanna measure against,

Speaker 0 · 18:12

we'll say work with EDO and what is the trap web traffic that's created Yeah. We'll work with them on that. If they wanna do it in terms of sales, we'll work with them on that as well. So it's a portal where you can log in to third party measurement solutions. Yep. And so, I mean, like, you could you have Nielsen numbers would would be in there too, I imagine. Yep. And they can just pick the provider. We will have there's there's seven different providers already that are in there, and we'll be adding more as we go along. Do you think, though, like, my attitude towards what's going on in The US is it actually makes the entire TV industry look a bit bad. And it makes us look like, a, we we can't count, and b, perhaps we just look like we we don't know what we're doing. And the problem is many of the top CMOs sit in The US, and they think that's the same in the rest of the world, which is a bit of a problem for the television industry. You I think you're right. And I think also

Speaker 1 · 19:01

we we still have an antiquated way we often talk about it. Broadcast television, you know, I love when I'll see the chart that they're like, you know, compared to 1980, their ratings are down. Well, of course, they are. Mhmm. I mean, now The Voice comes out Monday night. That's the first airing and it will be seen by 7,000,000 people that week. Only 3,000,000 may watch it the first night, but that week, there's 7,000,000 people that watch it. Mhmm. But we still report against just Monday.

Speaker 0 · 19:27

It makes no sense of how we continue to do that. Monday plus seven days and and Well, we hit we some of them do that, but most of it is either it's usually three day or it's a lot. So do you think the result the the answer is using a base of numbers and then and then supplementing it with the stuff that you guys choose? A 100%. But that's why can't just be an NBCU solution. It has to be a solution that's broader than just us. And you mentioned the gauge. It is quite interesting. When you talk to buyers in your market, they get frustrated because clients see it and actually use that. They actually use it as a percentage guide where they should what they spend. That's the most dangerous

Speaker 1 · 19:58

thing Yeah. Out there is when someone looks at that and says, you know, a certain, you know, distributor makes up 13% of they what they think are impressions. Mhmm. It's not the case. Yeah. It's not the case. Yeah. That's interesting. Well, it's been excellent, speaking to you. Thank you. I always enjoy your time. Thank you. Take care. Thank you.